I've linked to one of Helen Setterfield's articles here previously. Here's another good one:
A friend who is a Calvinist wrote to me that he was a little upset with my articles on Calvinism here. I asked him to show me where I was wrong. His points are in blue italics. My responses are in straight print.
The Apostle describes us as being dead in sin (Eph. 2:1,5). Picture Lazarus in the tomb—powerless to choose life. We’re all like that, but Jesus quickened Lazarus from the dead. John tells us that these were signs. Paul himself was in no mood to choose Jesus, but Jesus was in a mood to do a heart transplant on Paul (cf. Ezek. 36:26).
First, I think the problem is with the definition of ‘death.’ Death means separation, not unconsciousness. When a person dies physically, he is separated from his body. The body may not be able to respond, but the person himself is quite conscious (or hell would have no meaning). Spiritual death, or the second death, is separation from God. In John 17:3, Jesus defines eternal life as knowing God and the Son. That means eternal death is NOT knowing them. The ‘know’ in this context is not an intellectual acknowledgement, but rather an intimate relationship – along the lines of Adam knowing his wife and she becoming pregnant. When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, He caused his soul and spirit to re-enter his body and healed the body from the effects of what caused his death. Remember the story about the rich man and the other Lazarus after death (Luke 16:19-31)? Both were entirely conscious although their bodies were probably well-rotted by that time. So death is not unconsciousness.
In Isaiah 1:18, the Lord invites the sinner “Come, let us reason together…though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.” Who is the Lord talking to? Someone who is already saved? No. Someone who is deeply in sin, and the person is being offered a choice. This offer is totally meaningless if the person is not able to respond to the Lord.
In Jeremiah 29, the Lord tells the people of Israel, “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you.”
Remember Jesus saying, “Come to me all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give your rest.” Are only those chosen from before the beginning of time those who labor and are heavy-laden? I sincerely doubt that.
About Paul. Paul was totally eager to protect the reputation and character of God. For THAT reason he was persecuting the Christians. Paul’s heart was totally for the God he knew from the Scriptures and had been taught in rabbinical school. He had also been taught that the Christian sect was heretical and therefore he was going to do his best to protect God’s holy reputation/name and stamp it out. God knew Paul’s heart and honored Paul’s devotion, even though it was involved in a misunderstanding about Jesus. So Jesus presented Paul with the truth of Himself and Paul responded 100%. The rest is history. There was no ‘mood’ about it, either way...read the article
Showing posts with label Calvinism. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Calvinism. Show all posts
Saturday, January 29, 2011
Thursday, January 27, 2011
Calvinism & John 3:16
Great article. I think the author nails it well....
In order to believe in Calvinistic theology, a person must explain why the normal text of a passage simply does not say what it appears to say. John 3:16 is probably the most popular Bible verse in all the world, and yes, by that I mean the entire world. I could be wrong, but needless to say, many people, even non-Christians, know this verse by heart. However, according to Calvinists, this verse does not really mean exactly what it says. To them, the word “world” does not mean the entire world.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
A Calvinist could probably spend over thirty minutes explaining to you why the word “world” in this sentence does not mean the whole world...keep reading
In order to believe in Calvinistic theology, a person must explain why the normal text of a passage simply does not say what it appears to say. John 3:16 is probably the most popular Bible verse in all the world, and yes, by that I mean the entire world. I could be wrong, but needless to say, many people, even non-Christians, know this verse by heart. However, according to Calvinists, this verse does not really mean exactly what it says. To them, the word “world” does not mean the entire world.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
A Calvinist could probably spend over thirty minutes explaining to you why the word “world” in this sentence does not mean the whole world...keep reading
Saturday, August 9, 2008
Who Are the Elect?
My introduction to Calvinism, the teaching of the "Elect" and predestination was at Barry Setterfield’s Genesis Science Research website (which I highly recommend) where I found some articles written by Barry's wife, Helen.
Helen Setterfield has graciously given me permission to post her article in full, but because it is quite lengthy, I'll post part of it and provide a link to Helen's website for those who wish to read the rest. In this very insightful article, Helen explores the meaning of the term elect, who it refers to and how and why God chooses people:
Who Are the Elect? by Helen Setterfield
As a challenge to my conviction that Calvinism is not accurate, I was asked to please give my opinion of the term ‘elect’ as used in the New Testament. My response was that my opinion didn’t matter a whit, but what the Bible says is what matters, and so I promised to do a study on this word.
I learned a lot, and that is an understatement. I do want to thank my husband, Barry, for his help in helping me look up so many verses and checking many in other translations for me. So here is, as requested, what ‘elect’ appears to mean in the New Testament.
The Greek words being dealt with here include ‘eklegomai’, ‘eklektos’, and ‘ekloge’.
Matthew 24:15-31”So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel – let the reader understand – then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now – and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect – if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.
“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
“Immediately after the distress of those days
‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
“At that time the sing of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”
The first two uses of ‘elect’ in the above passage are in direct reference to Daniel’s prophecy regarding the abomination that causes desolation and the time known as Jacob’s trouble. This is the Tribulation. Revelation tells us that during that time there are 144,000 of the tribes of Israel who are identified as “the servants of our God.” These are chosen by God to be hidden from the wrath. Thus they have the name ‘elect.’ But they are chosen because they are His servants, and that is stated plainly. This use of ‘elect’ clearly does not pertain to any of us here on this forum today.
The third use of ‘elect’ in the above is interesting, for they are being gathered not from on earth, but from ‘the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.’ The implication is that they are already dead as we would consider them here on earth and are being gathered for this final scenario which Jesus is prophesying. There is internal evidence in the Bible that these may be the ‘armies of heaven’ who follow Christ when He comes down for battle against the beast in Rev. 19. Their clothes are ‘fine linen, white and clean.’ These are identified as the robes of the saints in verse 8, just preceding that coming. These are most certainly the elect, whether one sees that word from a Calvinist or non-calvinist perspective.
There is one other option for these elect, as the term is used once, as seen below, for some of the angels. Read the rest of the article
Other articles by Helen covering this topic:
My Response To Calvinism
Esau I Have Hated
Helen Setterfield has graciously given me permission to post her article in full, but because it is quite lengthy, I'll post part of it and provide a link to Helen's website for those who wish to read the rest. In this very insightful article, Helen explores the meaning of the term elect, who it refers to and how and why God chooses people:
Who Are the Elect? by Helen Setterfield
As a challenge to my conviction that Calvinism is not accurate, I was asked to please give my opinion of the term ‘elect’ as used in the New Testament. My response was that my opinion didn’t matter a whit, but what the Bible says is what matters, and so I promised to do a study on this word.
I learned a lot, and that is an understatement. I do want to thank my husband, Barry, for his help in helping me look up so many verses and checking many in other translations for me. So here is, as requested, what ‘elect’ appears to mean in the New Testament.
The Greek words being dealt with here include ‘eklegomai’, ‘eklektos’, and ‘ekloge’.
Matthew 24:15-31”So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel – let the reader understand – then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now – and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect – if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.
“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
“Immediately after the distress of those days
‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
“At that time the sing of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”
The first two uses of ‘elect’ in the above passage are in direct reference to Daniel’s prophecy regarding the abomination that causes desolation and the time known as Jacob’s trouble. This is the Tribulation. Revelation tells us that during that time there are 144,000 of the tribes of Israel who are identified as “the servants of our God.” These are chosen by God to be hidden from the wrath. Thus they have the name ‘elect.’ But they are chosen because they are His servants, and that is stated plainly. This use of ‘elect’ clearly does not pertain to any of us here on this forum today.
The third use of ‘elect’ in the above is interesting, for they are being gathered not from on earth, but from ‘the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.’ The implication is that they are already dead as we would consider them here on earth and are being gathered for this final scenario which Jesus is prophesying. There is internal evidence in the Bible that these may be the ‘armies of heaven’ who follow Christ when He comes down for battle against the beast in Rev. 19. Their clothes are ‘fine linen, white and clean.’ These are identified as the robes of the saints in verse 8, just preceding that coming. These are most certainly the elect, whether one sees that word from a Calvinist or non-calvinist perspective.
There is one other option for these elect, as the term is used once, as seen below, for some of the angels. Read the rest of the article
Other articles by Helen covering this topic:
My Response To Calvinism
Esau I Have Hated
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